Wrong Raincoats: Sugar, Frisbee (Episode 11) Transcript
Sorry for the long transcript hiatus! We'll be trying to catch up on some of these. The audio version of this episode can be found here.
Hannah: A cute woman and a wealthy woman face life in Hollywood looking for loyalty and heroin.
Jennie: Somebody write this.
Hannah: Hi, and welcome to Somebody Write This, where we use a random plot generator to give us an idea. And then we brainstorm how that could be a thing somebody might want to write. I'm Hannah.
Jennie: And I'm Jennie. And to help us with our brainstorming today, we have a guest. Welcome, Kate Smith.
Kate: Thank you for having me.
Hannah: Oh, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Kate and I actually went to college together, both studying theater, me in education and her in performance. I reached out to her specifically because she's got a really cool project that she's been working on for quite some time now. So, Kate, go ahead and just in as much detail as you want to start off with, tell our listeners a little bit about what this project is.
Kate: Thank you. Yes, I've been working on this project for the past three years. It's called One Woman Hamlet, and it parallels my own personal journey with mental illness, specifically depression and anxiety, with the story of Shakespeare's Hamlet. And I use puppets and screen projections and music to tell the story. So it's a bit whimsical and unconventional, serious at times, funny at others. And the goal with the project is to be able to tour with it through Chicago public high schools. It's something I wish I would have known when I was younger, is that I was dealing with mental illness and I just wasn't aware of it. So that sort of started the journey. We've actually started performing it in different music venues throughout the city, which has worked out really well, because I feel like the story works just as well for adults as for high schoolers. One of my friends, one of my best friends, committed suicide a few years ago and started me on creating the project in his honor. And also I think as a way of, you know, finding catharsis and healing through that, and then I've also dealt with suicidal thoughts myself. So the project was just sort of a way to like break the stigma or the negative label that surrounds mental illness in our community and also share a bit of my story, Jesse's story, and create community throughout throughout the process. And it's been it's been an amazing journey, like super up and down, as all creative processes are, I feel like, but that's a little bit about the show.
Hannah: When I first was reading about this, I loved it. I thought it was super fantastic. And I definitely want to talk to you more about it. So as you put this together, what made you connect Hamlet specifically to this?
Kate: Hamlet, I didn't know why when I was younger, but it was always a story of catharsis and healing for me. I feel that Shakespeare sort of takes what my emotions are and then puts them into poetry or on the stage, and I find it so healing to feel seen in that way, to be like, "Oh, somebody else feels the way that this feeling..."
Jennie: Yeah, Shakespeare does that for me too. He brilliantly captured like almost every possible facet of the human experience.
Kate: Yes. And still. It's still so relevant. And Hamlet, I don't feel like people read it very often anymore as like a person dealing with mental illness. I don't think it has to be portrayed that way. But it's how I always read it, and so that's how I wanted to do my version of the show, is like Hamlet's dealing with, you know, depression over losing her father-- Oh, and Hamlet's a woman in the production, which is fun, I get to play Hamlet.
Jennie: I like it.
Hannah: How do you feel like the the story changes, either in terms of as a Hamlet production or as a mental illness story-- How do you feel like changing Hamlet from male to female-- How do you think that changes it?
Kate: I think it makes you hear it again, which I really appreciate. You know, when you're surprised that the person in front of you doesn't look exactly like how you're used to, I think your ear listens in a new way. Also, in my particular version of the story I'm Hamlet and then all the other characters are puppets, so I feel like that heightens that I'm manipulating, and so I feel like that sort of highlights that ability to listen in a new way as well. But also, it's interesting. I feel like-- And I might be wrong on this, but I feel like most productions of Hamlet, people expect the character to have their shit more together. And it's interesting, I don't feel like people have put that pressure on me as a woman as much when they watch it, just based on really initial feedback. I find it fascinating. I don't know, I'm excited to keep doing it and see. I'm sure I'll glean more information as it goes on. But yeah, that was my initial first, "Whoa, that's weird. I didn't expect that."
Jennie: This is the first I've heard of this project and I'm absolutely fascinated. Do you or will you ever in the future have a recorded version to share on the interwebs somewhere? Because I would love to watch your show.
Kate: Thank you. Yeah, I would love to eventually. I'm setting up five free productions throughout Chicago right now. So I'm in the process of booking them and they'll be announced within the next month and a half or so. And I'm hoping to record one so that I can share it for free online. I think that'd be really awesome. Thank you for asking.
Hannah: And if that ever happens, no matter how far down the road it is, let us know and we will pass that on. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who are not in the Chicago area now who would love to be able to see that. You talked a little bit about some of the feedback you've been getting. One of my favorite things about theater in general is that you get this sort of instant sense of feedback, both from audience reaction as well as from-- People talk to you about it, and then you have a chance to adjust it. And so this kind of constant relationship between audience and performer. What has been some feedback that has really-- What feedback do you think has really shaped it or what is some more feedback that really has surprised you? Just talk a little bit about that experience in creating something like this.
Kate: When I first started the show, it was like 90% Hamlet, 10% me. And now it's 70% my story and my friend Jesse's story and other stories I have in proportion to Hamlet, and that was because of workshops that I'd done earlier. I was surprised at how much people wanted to hear my story. And I think that's something that we as individuals in the world sometimes forget, that like people are interested in what we go through and that hearing that can make you feel less alone, for both parties. So in making something, I was very hesitant at first to share of myself, not because I wasn't ready, but because I didn't find myself interesting. And I think that was a really cool realization, is that everybody wants to be known and seen but people also want to know and see you, and I thought that was cool.
Hannah: That is cool. I like that a lot. This segues a little bit into some of the stuff that we'll be doing later as well, where we will ask you to share a favorite piece of media, but I want to ask specifically, besides-- You talked about always viewing Hamlet as sort of having this mental illness lens. Have there been other pieces of art that you would really identify as being -- especially storytelling -- that were important for you in your own mental health journey?
Kate: Two. One you've mentioned before on the podcast. I really love Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Hannah: Oh, yes. It's so good for this. Yes.
Kate: It's incredible. Somebody introduced it to me halfway through the creative process, and I needed it so badly at that time, because I was like, "Oh, somebody else is like, sharing their story." I felt so much less alone, and I felt inspired. I just think she's amazing. The other one is-- Did either of you watch Xena: Warrior Princess growing up?
Jennie: Yes.
Hannah: I've seen pieces of it.
Kate: Yeah. So I'm bi, and I remember watching that and just being like, oh, somebody who is like me is on screen right now. Well, at least that's how it felt. It was never really that aggressive. But it felt like that to my young mind. And it was a woman kicking ass and that was amazing. She was the hero and so I was like, "Maybe I can be the hero." So Xena: Warrior Princess was hugely inspirational to me.
Hannah: That's fantastic. I love it. Well, we'll definitely give you a chance later to share where people can find out more about this. Even for those not in the Chicago area, you send out some information, which I've been following, and so we'll definitely give you a chance to share a little bit more about how listeners can find you later. But for the moment, let's jump right on into our storytelling and our plot devising. As a reminder, our prompt is, "A cute woman and a wealthy woman face life in Hollywood looking for loyalty and heroin."
Jennie: Wow.
Kate: I know, what a story.
Hannah: So yeah, on the face of this, you've got the beginning earmarks of like a classic Hollywood "young actors arrive and fall into drug use or substance abuse," but there are pieces of this that really kind of intrigue me. They're looking for loyalty. I'm intrigued by the distinction between "cute" and "wealthy" in describing these women. Like, I would never look at two people and be like, "That's the cute one. That's the wealthy one."
Jennie: Does being wealthy preclude one from being cute and vice versa?
Kate: It made me feel like they were like-- You know when you think of old partners in crime in black and white 1940s-style or maybe earlier style movies, where there's like the one partner that is clearly just like the one characteristic and then the other partner that is the other characteristic. Like, two women come to Hollywood, one has money, one is cute. I don't know.
Hannah: Maybe they're both arriving assuming that taking on that one quality is the one that will let them-- Like one arriving assuming her looks will get her through to being a star and one arriving assuming she can buy her way into being a star. Maybe the cuteness and the wealth are-- Maybe they're choosing to self identify strongly that one way.
Kate: I love that.
Jennie: So we're assuming that these two women did not already know each other before arriving in Hollywood.
Hannah: Yeah, it doesn't actually-- I read into they're arriving at Hollywood. Maybe one of them was already there.
Jennie: Yeah, maybe one was already there. Maybe they already knew each other, like, "Hey, yeah, come to Hollywood, you can make it here." Like maybe the wealthy one has already made it and invited the cute one to come and try it out.
Kate: "You're cute, come to Hollywood, be wealthy."
Hannah: Right. Is this like a sugar mama situation here? Is there a relationship where one is supporting the other but they're both kind of interested in Hollywood movie stardom?
Kate: Yes, I like that.
Hannah: And especially looking for loyalty.
Jennie: Yeah, that's the thing. Because it doesn't say looking for fame or looking for success, it says looking for loyalty.
Hannah: And not even looking for friendship or romance.
Kate: I wonder if perhaps the wealthy woman is running like a heroin ring in Hollywood and needs a cute front face, and so she's looking for loyalty to support her underground heroin operation. But then maybe she runs out of heroin, I don't know. Or she needs a front person to get heroin. There's something interesting to me in that there's something about that trait that she needs.
Hannah: Yeah, and if they're both looking for loyalty, you could end up with this sort of-- I feel like this happens in a lot of crime movies and a lot of stories like this, where there's this very precarious relationship of trust, but at any moment, circumstances could lead one or the other to stab the other in the back. And so maybe they're both-- Like the wealthy woman is having to rely on the cute woman to not turn her in, and the cute woman has to rely on the wealthy woman that she's going to continue maybe taking care of her, continue paying her bills, and so there's maybe this sort of just-about-to-topple symbiotic relationship.
Jennie: See, this could go so many different directions now, because I'm thinking this could be like a feel good girl buddy movie, life growth, you know, "Oh, isn't it funny that we tried heroin?" kind of. Or it could be TV crime evil torture trafficking.. We have a huge spectrum here that this plot could fit in.
Hannah: Yeah, I can definitely see comedic vibes for this, but I think like I'm seeing it more as a black comedy. It's clearly unhealthy in every way.
Kate: Yeah, like somebody steals the heroin and they have to get it back before they're in trouble. Sort of like-- Have you seen Good Girls?
Hannah: Yeah, I've seen the first several episodes of it. I haven't finished it yet.
Kate: The thing I find most interesting about-- I haven't either-- but I find most interesting about that, is just... I love seeing women like reclaim power through shenanigans in storytelling. I feel like there's room for that in this.
Hannah: So maybe the heroin is new to them too. Maybe it's not like they have an established heroin empire or whatever. Maybe they're looking for heroin, either to hunt somebody else down or to try to find somebody who's connected to this, or because they, I don't know, maybe it's not an established part. Maybe it's something that they are going after from a side angle.
Jennie: Maybe it's part of a scavenger hunt. "Find loyalty, find heroin."
Kate: "And, go."
Jennie: "Check."
Kate: What if they just trying to find happiness and one's like, "It's not in wealth," somebody else is like, "It's not in being cute. Maybe it's in heroin."
Jennie: I'm picturing -- and this is going the other direction, the darker direction, because you mentioned the sugar mama -- what if there's a gaslighting element to this? The wealthy woman is seducing the cute woman to come to Hollywood, and the cute woman is obviously looking for stability in a relationship with another person, so she'd be the perfect target.
Kate: Oh, I love that.
Jennie: That kind of thing. And so the wealthy woman is the villain but maybe at the beginning of the story, we don't even know that, like the audience doesn't even know that. But then it's sinisterly creeping in. I don't know what her ultimate motive is, but other than just, you know, having power over another human being, but she'd be looking for loyalty too, right? Somebody who would be there for on her terms no matter what.
Kate: I think that's beautiful.
Jennie: Is it beautiful?
Kate: Well, beautiful in like --
Jennie: As a story. Not as a relationship.
Kate: Not as a relationship, not the ideal situation. But beautiful in the vulnerability of it too.
Hannah: Are these women the same age? I just realized I've been thinking of them as being different ages because of running to stereotypes. But are they the same age?
Jennie: See, I was thinking they were different ages.
Kate: I was thinking the wealthy woman is older, yeah.
Hannah: So yeah, there's a part of me that that wants to go against that and be like, "No." Maybe they went to school together and one went off and made it and did really well.
Jennie: Or maybe the wealthy woman is the one not from Hollywood. She's a younger wealthy woman, like just inherited or she's a trust fund baby or something. And the cute woman is in Hollywood and needs financial security, and so she's bringing in the wealthy woman to help her with her acting career. I'm just throwing random stuff out.
Hannah: For sure. I'm gonna pause us for a second because it's time for our title.
Jennie: Yes, I think we need some more guidance here.
Hannah: This is not going to clear things up.
Jennie: Oh no.
Kate: What is it?
Hannah: The title is "Wrong Raincoats: Sugar, Frisbee."
Kate: Oh my god.
Hannah: It's just a series of random phrases. Are Sugar and Frisbee their names?
Jennie: Oh, I love that.
Kate: Yes, Sugar and Frisbee are definitely the names. Can Sugar Mama be Sugar?
Hannah: Yes, and Frisbee's the little one.
Jennie: Oh well, she's obviously-- Her parents were on drugs too because they named her Frisbee, so she's from like a commune in the middle of Oklahoma or something.
Hannah: Maybe they never actually know each other's names. Their pet names for each other-- And so maybe the audience never gets to know their names.
Jennie: I like "Wrong Raincoats actually." I feel like that could color the whole theme of things, being like, they're trying to find their place in life and so like they're wearing "the wrong raincoat." Right?
Kate: I love that. Could it be visualized in real raincoats somewhere in this? Like they switch coats and trouble ensues. But I love continuing with that as representation of that idea.
Jennie: Right, because neither of them feels like they fit in the life that they have. And so they end up switching coats and that's how they meet, and then they influence each other's lives that way.
Hannah: And I like including the visual element as well. Maybe they do swap raincoats partway through, either intentionally or accidentally, and either referred to in the story or not. I could see that being a design choice that just suddenly they're just wearing the other raincoat and maybe they're similar but like there's a small change and you don't even realize it until you're like, "Wait a minute. That one has a brown stripe on the back," or whatever.
Kate: I love that.
Hannah: So if that's the visual element of it, what does this say about the narrative arc of their relationship? Is it leaning toward that they 're wearing each other's raincoats, and they need to swap places to be happy? Is this about a "What I had the other person wanted and needed the whole time" kind of thing? Or is this that they're both just out of place and both need to-- Do they end up together at the end? I don't know. Where are we going?
Jennie: I don't know. There are so many-- It could fit so many different things. That title didn't help at all.
Hannah: Hey, they have names now!
Kate: I'm sort of intrigued that they're both out of place. And enjoy wearing raincoats. I think also-- Examining that previous sentence I said, I don't think I was being clear in my own mind. But the women gain power through hijinks is sort of like women reclaiming new space for themselves in a place that wasn't designed necessarily.
Jennie: Yeah, that definitely fits this.
Kate: Yeah. Like, they wore their raincoats. They do their thing. I don't know, maybe the heroin comes into play.
Hannah: I was wondering if they like picked up somebody else's raincoat and there was heroin in the pocket.
Kate: Totally.
Hannah: And so then they have to-- There's some reason why they don't just get rid of it.
Kate: Maybe they just really like the raincoat.
Hannah: Maybe they're looking for the person who had the raincoat. For some reason, like they're trying to track that person down.
Jennie: Here's another thing to throw in. If one of them's named Sugar, and one of them's Frisbee, maybe Heroin is the person they're trying to find.
Kate: Oh my god, that's incredible. I really enjoy that.
Hannah: Oh, man. I feel like that just opened a new door with so many other possibilities beyond this.
Jennie: See, I was an English major, and so now I'm thinking, what if it's not heroin, the drug, but a heroine, as in somebody to save them from their lives that don't fit me. I mean, it's not spelled that way but the poet in me--
Hannah: You could absolutely play with the fact that this character is named Heroin and also happens to be the heroine that they need. Even if it's not as directly as we're talking about, you can play with that.
Kate: Does anybody else see a weird dystopian world now where Heroin is the underground ringleader of the vigilantes?
Jennie: Yes.
Kate: Sugar and Frisbee are trying to find Heroin because they don't want to wear society's raincoats? I don't know.
Hannah: But the names of this also lend themselves to this sort of weird real world-adjacent setup. So I think that helps us.
Jennie: We've gone into sci-fi again. Dang it.
Hannah: Well, it doesn't have to involve any-- It can honestly just be like this-- Even more fantasy maybe. It's just this slightly off alternate world where it's not clear that we're clearly in, you know, another universe, but things are just different.
Jennie: Alternate history.
Kate: Maybe this is where the rats on Mars start even. In the sewers with Heroin before they going to Mars.
Jennie: Maybe Sugar, Frisbee and Heroin are their code names for The Daughter.
Kate: I'm actually really surprised by how versatile this one is. I thought it was gonna lend more towards specificity, but there's so many ways you could go. I love it.
Jennie: That's what we find out when we do these things. We have the surprise of, "Oh, we could do this, or we could do that."
Hannah: That being said, I feel like, like I said, we've opened about 20 doors, all of which have 24 more doors behind them. So I don't think we're gonna narrow this down anytime soon.
Jennie: We have no conclusions at this time.
Hannah: However, we've got characters, we've got names, we've got a weird alternate reality setting, we have a strong visual element of wrong raincoats.
Jennie: And with the theme of feeling out of place.
Hannah: And loyalty and loyal relationships, so I think we have the building blocks of something.
Jennie: We just don't have a plot.
Hannah: Yeah, I wondered if we were going to land on one sometime that was gonna do something like this, and this is the one. We have all these pieces that can be put together in any tone and shape people want.
Kate: It's kind of exciting as a writer maybe. I don't know.
Hannah: Right? This is again, one-- I would love to see different takes on this. It's a writing prompt where like, "Okay, you need raincoats, the main character's named Sugar and it's set in a vaguely dystopian future." So that being said, we are near the end of our time of discussing this. Is there anything that's just like absolutely pressing that you're like, "We have not talked about this and we really need to"?
Jennie: There's too many questions.
Hannah: There's too much. I'm gonna have to pass it off to our listeners to interpret this any way you choose.
Jennie: And we're actually-- We want to know what this story is. So please write something and send it to us.
Hannah: I don't know if we've made this clear before either on the show, but we also welcome-- Even if you're not like, "I'm going to type up a story about this," just send us your fan theories. I would love to hear different interpretations of this, even if it's just, "Hey, I thought that Sugar would mean this," or, "I thought that you can incorporate the raincoats and the loyalty this way." Please send those to us. We'll be happy to share them on the show or, or not, however, whatever you want, but we'd love to hear more ideas of where we could go with this, especially for something like this where it feels like completely limitless possibilities here. All right, then let's segue into our last pieces here. Before we close out and let you plug yourself and the work you're doing, let's take a second to share a story that we think our listeners should check out. So I'm going to go ahead and start. I finally this weekend watched the most recent Best Picture winner, Parasite, and it was phenomenal. I didn't know a lot about it going in, which I think is absolutely the best way to do it, so I'm not going to give you any any teasers. Really, it's one that has continued to stick with me, and the visuals and the themes and the characters are so strong and so intense, that the more I think about it, the more I love it. It just keeps growing in my estimation. So if you haven't seen that yet, I highly suggest you check it out. It's really great. I'm going to toss it to you, Jennie, what would you like to recommend for today?
Jennie: I'd like to recommend an autobiography, "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman: Adventures of a Curious Character" by Richard P. Feynman. Richard Feynman is a theoretical physicist. He's received a Nobel Prize for his work, but his life has been so much more than that, and reading what he wrote about himself, about his stories with his work, about how he learned to play the drums, about experiences with amps when he was a teenager just trying to figure things out and his thought processes-- and he's a really wonderful storyteller. So even if you're-- I'm not into physics myself, I was an English major. But reading his stories is just really fascinating. And so if you-- Like we said, looking into other people's lives and learning their stories, this is a fascinating personal story, and it's really a delight to read. So check that out.
Hannah: All right, Kate, what would you like to recommend for our listeners to check out?
Kate: I have gone back recently to rereading The Little Prince. Have either of you read that book?
Hannah: I have, I have. I actually have taught a class on it, adopting it for young'uns.
Kate: I just think it's delightful. It means something different to me every time I read it, and it always fills me with enchantment, and wonder again, which I find always makes everything else feel better. So I would recommend going back and rereading. It's at almost all the libraries. There's a lovely pop up book available as well that I really recommend that you can find. Again, most libraries are carrying it now, which is nice, or it's read aloud on YouTube as well with the pop up book, if you'd want to check that out.
Hannah: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that. Before we go Kate, tell listeners how they can find out more about your show and about the work you're doing, even if they're not in the Chicago area.
Kate: Yes. So you can go to my website, www.onewomanhamlet.com. And I write weekly blog posts based on mental health information, and I have guest writers. And so if that's something you want to be a part of, just a community of people talking about mental health topics... I also include a small bit of information on what's coming up next with the show in each email, but you can subscribe to that on my website. And also I put previous blog posts there and all the upcoming show information will be posted there as well.
Hannah: I know that Kate and I talked about me writing a guest post at some point in the next couple months. So definitely. I've been reading those and really appreciating them for the last couple months myself and so I highly recommend that. Thank you so much for joining us, Kate. It was a delight.
Kate: Thanks, Hannah and Jennie. The same. This is amazing. I really appreciate it.
Hannah: Absolutely. That is our episode, folks. As a reminder, you can find us every other Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
Jennie: Follow us on Twitter @writethispod and if you've been inspired by this episode, and have questions or comments or a story or a theory or anything else, email us at somebodywritethis@gmail.com. Wwe'd love to hear from you.
Hannah: We will be back with another episode in two weeks. We'll see you then.
Jennie: And as they say, the vulture's foot spoils the soup.
Hannah: A cute woman and a wealthy woman face life in Hollywood looking for loyalty and heroin.
Jennie: Somebody write this.
Hannah: Hi, and welcome to Somebody Write This, where we use a random plot generator to give us an idea. And then we brainstorm how that could be a thing somebody might want to write. I'm Hannah.
Jennie: And I'm Jennie. And to help us with our brainstorming today, we have a guest. Welcome, Kate Smith.
Kate: Thank you for having me.
Hannah: Oh, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Kate and I actually went to college together, both studying theater, me in education and her in performance. I reached out to her specifically because she's got a really cool project that she's been working on for quite some time now. So, Kate, go ahead and just in as much detail as you want to start off with, tell our listeners a little bit about what this project is.
Kate: Thank you. Yes, I've been working on this project for the past three years. It's called One Woman Hamlet, and it parallels my own personal journey with mental illness, specifically depression and anxiety, with the story of Shakespeare's Hamlet. And I use puppets and screen projections and music to tell the story. So it's a bit whimsical and unconventional, serious at times, funny at others. And the goal with the project is to be able to tour with it through Chicago public high schools. It's something I wish I would have known when I was younger, is that I was dealing with mental illness and I just wasn't aware of it. So that sort of started the journey. We've actually started performing it in different music venues throughout the city, which has worked out really well, because I feel like the story works just as well for adults as for high schoolers. One of my friends, one of my best friends, committed suicide a few years ago and started me on creating the project in his honor. And also I think as a way of, you know, finding catharsis and healing through that, and then I've also dealt with suicidal thoughts myself. So the project was just sort of a way to like break the stigma or the negative label that surrounds mental illness in our community and also share a bit of my story, Jesse's story, and create community throughout throughout the process. And it's been it's been an amazing journey, like super up and down, as all creative processes are, I feel like, but that's a little bit about the show.
Hannah: When I first was reading about this, I loved it. I thought it was super fantastic. And I definitely want to talk to you more about it. So as you put this together, what made you connect Hamlet specifically to this?
Kate: Hamlet, I didn't know why when I was younger, but it was always a story of catharsis and healing for me. I feel that Shakespeare sort of takes what my emotions are and then puts them into poetry or on the stage, and I find it so healing to feel seen in that way, to be like, "Oh, somebody else feels the way that this feeling..."
Jennie: Yeah, Shakespeare does that for me too. He brilliantly captured like almost every possible facet of the human experience.
Kate: Yes. And still. It's still so relevant. And Hamlet, I don't feel like people read it very often anymore as like a person dealing with mental illness. I don't think it has to be portrayed that way. But it's how I always read it, and so that's how I wanted to do my version of the show, is like Hamlet's dealing with, you know, depression over losing her father-- Oh, and Hamlet's a woman in the production, which is fun, I get to play Hamlet.
Jennie: I like it.
Hannah: How do you feel like the the story changes, either in terms of as a Hamlet production or as a mental illness story-- How do you feel like changing Hamlet from male to female-- How do you think that changes it?
Kate: I think it makes you hear it again, which I really appreciate. You know, when you're surprised that the person in front of you doesn't look exactly like how you're used to, I think your ear listens in a new way. Also, in my particular version of the story I'm Hamlet and then all the other characters are puppets, so I feel like that heightens that I'm manipulating, and so I feel like that sort of highlights that ability to listen in a new way as well. But also, it's interesting. I feel like-- And I might be wrong on this, but I feel like most productions of Hamlet, people expect the character to have their shit more together. And it's interesting, I don't feel like people have put that pressure on me as a woman as much when they watch it, just based on really initial feedback. I find it fascinating. I don't know, I'm excited to keep doing it and see. I'm sure I'll glean more information as it goes on. But yeah, that was my initial first, "Whoa, that's weird. I didn't expect that."
Jennie: This is the first I've heard of this project and I'm absolutely fascinated. Do you or will you ever in the future have a recorded version to share on the interwebs somewhere? Because I would love to watch your show.
Kate: Thank you. Yeah, I would love to eventually. I'm setting up five free productions throughout Chicago right now. So I'm in the process of booking them and they'll be announced within the next month and a half or so. And I'm hoping to record one so that I can share it for free online. I think that'd be really awesome. Thank you for asking.
Hannah: And if that ever happens, no matter how far down the road it is, let us know and we will pass that on. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who are not in the Chicago area now who would love to be able to see that. You talked a little bit about some of the feedback you've been getting. One of my favorite things about theater in general is that you get this sort of instant sense of feedback, both from audience reaction as well as from-- People talk to you about it, and then you have a chance to adjust it. And so this kind of constant relationship between audience and performer. What has been some feedback that has really-- What feedback do you think has really shaped it or what is some more feedback that really has surprised you? Just talk a little bit about that experience in creating something like this.
Kate: When I first started the show, it was like 90% Hamlet, 10% me. And now it's 70% my story and my friend Jesse's story and other stories I have in proportion to Hamlet, and that was because of workshops that I'd done earlier. I was surprised at how much people wanted to hear my story. And I think that's something that we as individuals in the world sometimes forget, that like people are interested in what we go through and that hearing that can make you feel less alone, for both parties. So in making something, I was very hesitant at first to share of myself, not because I wasn't ready, but because I didn't find myself interesting. And I think that was a really cool realization, is that everybody wants to be known and seen but people also want to know and see you, and I thought that was cool.
Hannah: That is cool. I like that a lot. This segues a little bit into some of the stuff that we'll be doing later as well, where we will ask you to share a favorite piece of media, but I want to ask specifically, besides-- You talked about always viewing Hamlet as sort of having this mental illness lens. Have there been other pieces of art that you would really identify as being -- especially storytelling -- that were important for you in your own mental health journey?
Kate: Two. One you've mentioned before on the podcast. I really love Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
Hannah: Oh, yes. It's so good for this. Yes.
Kate: It's incredible. Somebody introduced it to me halfway through the creative process, and I needed it so badly at that time, because I was like, "Oh, somebody else is like, sharing their story." I felt so much less alone, and I felt inspired. I just think she's amazing. The other one is-- Did either of you watch Xena: Warrior Princess growing up?
Jennie: Yes.
Hannah: I've seen pieces of it.
Kate: Yeah. So I'm bi, and I remember watching that and just being like, oh, somebody who is like me is on screen right now. Well, at least that's how it felt. It was never really that aggressive. But it felt like that to my young mind. And it was a woman kicking ass and that was amazing. She was the hero and so I was like, "Maybe I can be the hero." So Xena: Warrior Princess was hugely inspirational to me.
Hannah: That's fantastic. I love it. Well, we'll definitely give you a chance later to share where people can find out more about this. Even for those not in the Chicago area, you send out some information, which I've been following, and so we'll definitely give you a chance to share a little bit more about how listeners can find you later. But for the moment, let's jump right on into our storytelling and our plot devising. As a reminder, our prompt is, "A cute woman and a wealthy woman face life in Hollywood looking for loyalty and heroin."
Jennie: Wow.
Kate: I know, what a story.
Hannah: So yeah, on the face of this, you've got the beginning earmarks of like a classic Hollywood "young actors arrive and fall into drug use or substance abuse," but there are pieces of this that really kind of intrigue me. They're looking for loyalty. I'm intrigued by the distinction between "cute" and "wealthy" in describing these women. Like, I would never look at two people and be like, "That's the cute one. That's the wealthy one."
Jennie: Does being wealthy preclude one from being cute and vice versa?
Kate: It made me feel like they were like-- You know when you think of old partners in crime in black and white 1940s-style or maybe earlier style movies, where there's like the one partner that is clearly just like the one characteristic and then the other partner that is the other characteristic. Like, two women come to Hollywood, one has money, one is cute. I don't know.
Hannah: Maybe they're both arriving assuming that taking on that one quality is the one that will let them-- Like one arriving assuming her looks will get her through to being a star and one arriving assuming she can buy her way into being a star. Maybe the cuteness and the wealth are-- Maybe they're choosing to self identify strongly that one way.
Kate: I love that.
Jennie: So we're assuming that these two women did not already know each other before arriving in Hollywood.
Hannah: Yeah, it doesn't actually-- I read into they're arriving at Hollywood. Maybe one of them was already there.
Jennie: Yeah, maybe one was already there. Maybe they already knew each other, like, "Hey, yeah, come to Hollywood, you can make it here." Like maybe the wealthy one has already made it and invited the cute one to come and try it out.
Kate: "You're cute, come to Hollywood, be wealthy."
Hannah: Right. Is this like a sugar mama situation here? Is there a relationship where one is supporting the other but they're both kind of interested in Hollywood movie stardom?
Kate: Yes, I like that.
Hannah: And especially looking for loyalty.
Jennie: Yeah, that's the thing. Because it doesn't say looking for fame or looking for success, it says looking for loyalty.
Hannah: And not even looking for friendship or romance.
Kate: I wonder if perhaps the wealthy woman is running like a heroin ring in Hollywood and needs a cute front face, and so she's looking for loyalty to support her underground heroin operation. But then maybe she runs out of heroin, I don't know. Or she needs a front person to get heroin. There's something interesting to me in that there's something about that trait that she needs.
Hannah: Yeah, and if they're both looking for loyalty, you could end up with this sort of-- I feel like this happens in a lot of crime movies and a lot of stories like this, where there's this very precarious relationship of trust, but at any moment, circumstances could lead one or the other to stab the other in the back. And so maybe they're both-- Like the wealthy woman is having to rely on the cute woman to not turn her in, and the cute woman has to rely on the wealthy woman that she's going to continue maybe taking care of her, continue paying her bills, and so there's maybe this sort of just-about-to-topple symbiotic relationship.
Jennie: See, this could go so many different directions now, because I'm thinking this could be like a feel good girl buddy movie, life growth, you know, "Oh, isn't it funny that we tried heroin?" kind of. Or it could be TV crime evil torture trafficking.. We have a huge spectrum here that this plot could fit in.
Hannah: Yeah, I can definitely see comedic vibes for this, but I think like I'm seeing it more as a black comedy. It's clearly unhealthy in every way.
Kate: Yeah, like somebody steals the heroin and they have to get it back before they're in trouble. Sort of like-- Have you seen Good Girls?
Hannah: Yeah, I've seen the first several episodes of it. I haven't finished it yet.
Kate: The thing I find most interesting about-- I haven't either-- but I find most interesting about that, is just... I love seeing women like reclaim power through shenanigans in storytelling. I feel like there's room for that in this.
Hannah: So maybe the heroin is new to them too. Maybe it's not like they have an established heroin empire or whatever. Maybe they're looking for heroin, either to hunt somebody else down or to try to find somebody who's connected to this, or because they, I don't know, maybe it's not an established part. Maybe it's something that they are going after from a side angle.
Jennie: Maybe it's part of a scavenger hunt. "Find loyalty, find heroin."
Kate: "And, go."
Jennie: "Check."
Kate: What if they just trying to find happiness and one's like, "It's not in wealth," somebody else is like, "It's not in being cute. Maybe it's in heroin."
Jennie: I'm picturing -- and this is going the other direction, the darker direction, because you mentioned the sugar mama -- what if there's a gaslighting element to this? The wealthy woman is seducing the cute woman to come to Hollywood, and the cute woman is obviously looking for stability in a relationship with another person, so she'd be the perfect target.
Kate: Oh, I love that.
Jennie: That kind of thing. And so the wealthy woman is the villain but maybe at the beginning of the story, we don't even know that, like the audience doesn't even know that. But then it's sinisterly creeping in. I don't know what her ultimate motive is, but other than just, you know, having power over another human being, but she'd be looking for loyalty too, right? Somebody who would be there for on her terms no matter what.
Kate: I think that's beautiful.
Jennie: Is it beautiful?
Kate: Well, beautiful in like --
Jennie: As a story. Not as a relationship.
Kate: Not as a relationship, not the ideal situation. But beautiful in the vulnerability of it too.
Hannah: Are these women the same age? I just realized I've been thinking of them as being different ages because of running to stereotypes. But are they the same age?
Jennie: See, I was thinking they were different ages.
Kate: I was thinking the wealthy woman is older, yeah.
Hannah: So yeah, there's a part of me that that wants to go against that and be like, "No." Maybe they went to school together and one went off and made it and did really well.
Jennie: Or maybe the wealthy woman is the one not from Hollywood. She's a younger wealthy woman, like just inherited or she's a trust fund baby or something. And the cute woman is in Hollywood and needs financial security, and so she's bringing in the wealthy woman to help her with her acting career. I'm just throwing random stuff out.
Hannah: For sure. I'm gonna pause us for a second because it's time for our title.
Jennie: Yes, I think we need some more guidance here.
Hannah: This is not going to clear things up.
Jennie: Oh no.
Kate: What is it?
Hannah: The title is "Wrong Raincoats: Sugar, Frisbee."
Kate: Oh my god.
Hannah: It's just a series of random phrases. Are Sugar and Frisbee their names?
Jennie: Oh, I love that.
Kate: Yes, Sugar and Frisbee are definitely the names. Can Sugar Mama be Sugar?
Hannah: Yes, and Frisbee's the little one.
Jennie: Oh well, she's obviously-- Her parents were on drugs too because they named her Frisbee, so she's from like a commune in the middle of Oklahoma or something.
Hannah: Maybe they never actually know each other's names. Their pet names for each other-- And so maybe the audience never gets to know their names.
Jennie: I like "Wrong Raincoats actually." I feel like that could color the whole theme of things, being like, they're trying to find their place in life and so like they're wearing "the wrong raincoat." Right?
Kate: I love that. Could it be visualized in real raincoats somewhere in this? Like they switch coats and trouble ensues. But I love continuing with that as representation of that idea.
Jennie: Right, because neither of them feels like they fit in the life that they have. And so they end up switching coats and that's how they meet, and then they influence each other's lives that way.
Hannah: And I like including the visual element as well. Maybe they do swap raincoats partway through, either intentionally or accidentally, and either referred to in the story or not. I could see that being a design choice that just suddenly they're just wearing the other raincoat and maybe they're similar but like there's a small change and you don't even realize it until you're like, "Wait a minute. That one has a brown stripe on the back," or whatever.
Kate: I love that.
Hannah: So if that's the visual element of it, what does this say about the narrative arc of their relationship? Is it leaning toward that they 're wearing each other's raincoats, and they need to swap places to be happy? Is this about a "What I had the other person wanted and needed the whole time" kind of thing? Or is this that they're both just out of place and both need to-- Do they end up together at the end? I don't know. Where are we going?
Jennie: I don't know. There are so many-- It could fit so many different things. That title didn't help at all.
Hannah: Hey, they have names now!
Kate: I'm sort of intrigued that they're both out of place. And enjoy wearing raincoats. I think also-- Examining that previous sentence I said, I don't think I was being clear in my own mind. But the women gain power through hijinks is sort of like women reclaiming new space for themselves in a place that wasn't designed necessarily.
Jennie: Yeah, that definitely fits this.
Kate: Yeah. Like, they wore their raincoats. They do their thing. I don't know, maybe the heroin comes into play.
Hannah: I was wondering if they like picked up somebody else's raincoat and there was heroin in the pocket.
Kate: Totally.
Hannah: And so then they have to-- There's some reason why they don't just get rid of it.
Kate: Maybe they just really like the raincoat.
Hannah: Maybe they're looking for the person who had the raincoat. For some reason, like they're trying to track that person down.
Jennie: Here's another thing to throw in. If one of them's named Sugar, and one of them's Frisbee, maybe Heroin is the person they're trying to find.
Kate: Oh my god, that's incredible. I really enjoy that.
Hannah: Oh, man. I feel like that just opened a new door with so many other possibilities beyond this.
Jennie: See, I was an English major, and so now I'm thinking, what if it's not heroin, the drug, but a heroine, as in somebody to save them from their lives that don't fit me. I mean, it's not spelled that way but the poet in me--
Hannah: You could absolutely play with the fact that this character is named Heroin and also happens to be the heroine that they need. Even if it's not as directly as we're talking about, you can play with that.
Kate: Does anybody else see a weird dystopian world now where Heroin is the underground ringleader of the vigilantes?
Jennie: Yes.
Kate: Sugar and Frisbee are trying to find Heroin because they don't want to wear society's raincoats? I don't know.
Hannah: But the names of this also lend themselves to this sort of weird real world-adjacent setup. So I think that helps us.
Jennie: We've gone into sci-fi again. Dang it.
Hannah: Well, it doesn't have to involve any-- It can honestly just be like this-- Even more fantasy maybe. It's just this slightly off alternate world where it's not clear that we're clearly in, you know, another universe, but things are just different.
Jennie: Alternate history.
Kate: Maybe this is where the rats on Mars start even. In the sewers with Heroin before they going to Mars.
Jennie: Maybe Sugar, Frisbee and Heroin are their code names for The Daughter.
Kate: I'm actually really surprised by how versatile this one is. I thought it was gonna lend more towards specificity, but there's so many ways you could go. I love it.
Jennie: That's what we find out when we do these things. We have the surprise of, "Oh, we could do this, or we could do that."
Hannah: That being said, I feel like, like I said, we've opened about 20 doors, all of which have 24 more doors behind them. So I don't think we're gonna narrow this down anytime soon.
Jennie: We have no conclusions at this time.
Hannah: However, we've got characters, we've got names, we've got a weird alternate reality setting, we have a strong visual element of wrong raincoats.
Jennie: And with the theme of feeling out of place.
Hannah: And loyalty and loyal relationships, so I think we have the building blocks of something.
Jennie: We just don't have a plot.
Hannah: Yeah, I wondered if we were going to land on one sometime that was gonna do something like this, and this is the one. We have all these pieces that can be put together in any tone and shape people want.
Kate: It's kind of exciting as a writer maybe. I don't know.
Hannah: Right? This is again, one-- I would love to see different takes on this. It's a writing prompt where like, "Okay, you need raincoats, the main character's named Sugar and it's set in a vaguely dystopian future." So that being said, we are near the end of our time of discussing this. Is there anything that's just like absolutely pressing that you're like, "We have not talked about this and we really need to"?
Jennie: There's too many questions.
Hannah: There's too much. I'm gonna have to pass it off to our listeners to interpret this any way you choose.
Jennie: And we're actually-- We want to know what this story is. So please write something and send it to us.
Hannah: I don't know if we've made this clear before either on the show, but we also welcome-- Even if you're not like, "I'm going to type up a story about this," just send us your fan theories. I would love to hear different interpretations of this, even if it's just, "Hey, I thought that Sugar would mean this," or, "I thought that you can incorporate the raincoats and the loyalty this way." Please send those to us. We'll be happy to share them on the show or, or not, however, whatever you want, but we'd love to hear more ideas of where we could go with this, especially for something like this where it feels like completely limitless possibilities here. All right, then let's segue into our last pieces here. Before we close out and let you plug yourself and the work you're doing, let's take a second to share a story that we think our listeners should check out. So I'm going to go ahead and start. I finally this weekend watched the most recent Best Picture winner, Parasite, and it was phenomenal. I didn't know a lot about it going in, which I think is absolutely the best way to do it, so I'm not going to give you any any teasers. Really, it's one that has continued to stick with me, and the visuals and the themes and the characters are so strong and so intense, that the more I think about it, the more I love it. It just keeps growing in my estimation. So if you haven't seen that yet, I highly suggest you check it out. It's really great. I'm going to toss it to you, Jennie, what would you like to recommend for today?
Jennie: I'd like to recommend an autobiography, "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman: Adventures of a Curious Character" by Richard P. Feynman. Richard Feynman is a theoretical physicist. He's received a Nobel Prize for his work, but his life has been so much more than that, and reading what he wrote about himself, about his stories with his work, about how he learned to play the drums, about experiences with amps when he was a teenager just trying to figure things out and his thought processes-- and he's a really wonderful storyteller. So even if you're-- I'm not into physics myself, I was an English major. But reading his stories is just really fascinating. And so if you-- Like we said, looking into other people's lives and learning their stories, this is a fascinating personal story, and it's really a delight to read. So check that out.
Hannah: All right, Kate, what would you like to recommend for our listeners to check out?
Kate: I have gone back recently to rereading The Little Prince. Have either of you read that book?
Hannah: I have, I have. I actually have taught a class on it, adopting it for young'uns.
Kate: I just think it's delightful. It means something different to me every time I read it, and it always fills me with enchantment, and wonder again, which I find always makes everything else feel better. So I would recommend going back and rereading. It's at almost all the libraries. There's a lovely pop up book available as well that I really recommend that you can find. Again, most libraries are carrying it now, which is nice, or it's read aloud on YouTube as well with the pop up book, if you'd want to check that out.
Hannah: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that. Before we go Kate, tell listeners how they can find out more about your show and about the work you're doing, even if they're not in the Chicago area.
Kate: Yes. So you can go to my website, www.onewomanhamlet.com. And I write weekly blog posts based on mental health information, and I have guest writers. And so if that's something you want to be a part of, just a community of people talking about mental health topics... I also include a small bit of information on what's coming up next with the show in each email, but you can subscribe to that on my website. And also I put previous blog posts there and all the upcoming show information will be posted there as well.
Hannah: I know that Kate and I talked about me writing a guest post at some point in the next couple months. So definitely. I've been reading those and really appreciating them for the last couple months myself and so I highly recommend that. Thank you so much for joining us, Kate. It was a delight.
Kate: Thanks, Hannah and Jennie. The same. This is amazing. I really appreciate it.
Hannah: Absolutely. That is our episode, folks. As a reminder, you can find us every other Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
Jennie: Follow us on Twitter @writethispod and if you've been inspired by this episode, and have questions or comments or a story or a theory or anything else, email us at somebodywritethis@gmail.com. Wwe'd love to hear from you.
Hannah: We will be back with another episode in two weeks. We'll see you then.
Jennie: And as they say, the vulture's foot spoils the soup.
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